Interrogation In Iraq
You were tortured in Iraq for 6 weeks, what do you think about the abductions and torture that are taking place in Iraq at the moment?
It's quite a difficult one for me, actually, because I understand the reason for interrogations. I understand the reasons for, what we call, tactical interrogations where you want real-time information that may effect what you're doing on the ground. So, therefore, if you don't interrogate those guys, some of our guys might get killed. I understand the reasons for that. What I find difficult is the longevity of some of these interrogations conducted in other countries. I've actually been back to Baghdad on a number of occasions, period, as part of my job, now, with the security company and I went to Abograde prison where I was kept, just after the American abuse was exposed and I must say that was totally tyranny on us out there and what it was all about, was uncontrolled power. When you've got these guys, where there's no limits of exploitations, there's no checks and commands. So these people just let you run riot to interrogate these people for no information, because they just wanted to and that's the thing that doesn't need to happen.
What's your opinion about the photographs of US soldiers torturing prisoners in Iraq?
There was a difference between, certainly, what was happening to me and what was happening to the Iraqi's in Abu grade by the Americans. But actually, it doesn't really matter, though, it's what goes on in their heads, and, in fact, some of them were electrocuted, and some were bitten by dogs and beaten. What people forget is even during the Gulf War, the first Gulf War, and I was a prisoner in Abu grade, there was Iraqi's that were there as well, getting exactly the same torture and a lot of the Iranians, as well, because the Iraqis had, obviously, fought that long war with Iran. So it just wasn't us that were getting that torture. And a lot of them were in there just because they spoke out against Saddam, and they were in there for years. So, it's a very difficult one because I do understand the reasons for torture, and for that tactical information. And whether we like it or not, soldiers do it in the field because they've got their own people to think about. So it goes on.
Where do you draw the line for an acceptable level of interrogation?
It's a very difficult line, because obviously a lot of this is dictated by politics--well, actually, politicians. But actually, certainly from my point of view, when I was a soldier or when I think about it now, I would have no worries about--if I was in the field, and I had prisoners, and I wanted to know information, I would do whatever was needed to get that information, because I've got a responsibility to the people that are with me. So I'm not worried about that. Certainly, if we're in a civilian environment where we're looking at terrorism, and the prevention of terrorism, and now the advent of rendition, where people are lifted out of different countries and taken to people who will interrogate them, whether it's in North Africa or wherever it may be, again, I'm torn on this, because the fact is, if there's real-time information... An example: if we're looking at maybe the bombing of the London Tube system. Now the argument is if you could have had one of those guys they day before before, are you going to sit him down and make him aware of his rights so that he can just sit there and say nothing and that action could just take place, possibly? Or are you going to grip this guy, whatever's possible, whether you're going to use psychological interrogation first, that's not working, but you've got to grip this guy, because you want that information to save lives. That's trying to get the balance, whether you're looking at Guantanamo Bay, where the fact is, well, what are you doing? Well, if this guy isn't coming up with the information after a year, I don't think he's coming up with much. And whatever he comes up with is going to be old. So, you know, to a certain extent, that's counter-productive. But the real-time information, I personally--if I was in the UK--and I was in that situation where I had somebody, and I wanted to know when that bomb was going off in the next twenty-four hours, I would interrogate him. And I would take my chances in court in front of a jury, because they would understand.
What do you think of Guantanamo Bay?
That situation doesn't need to be there. A lot of it was done initially to make the American people feel good, and they did, there's no doubt about it. Action was certainly being taken. However, politically nobody can back down from that situation at the moment. I'm sure if a new administration comes in, it will start to dwindle. The fact is that if you're holding people, just make sure that you hold them in ways that are at least seen on the outside to be humane, because what you're trying to do is not only fight these people, but you're trying to bring them in, if you will, into the tent, and they won't make more martyrs that way. The whole idea of potential to prevent terrorism, there's nothing wrong with that, it's how you do it.
Can you describe what happened to you when you were interrogated and how you dealt with it?
Certainly, my own experience is what we called a "round robin." You're all put in the cells, you're handcuffed, you're blindfolded, and stripped of your clothing. Guards would always come into the cells, very noisy, kicking the doors, hollering and shouting, and basically conditioning you. You get punched, you get kicked, and spat on, all of those things happen in the cell. He'll then move on to the next guy, and the next cell, and what that's doing is really fearing you up, of course. At that moment they're trying to soften you up for the next round of physical interrogation, and there's nothing that you can do about that. All you are going to do is curl up, tighten the jaw and hopefully you take as little damage as possible during that time. In your mind, all the time, is escape. You're always trying to take in information, how the door is locked, when you're being taken out of a cell, and which way you turn. Are you outside, or are you inside? If you've got the opportunity, you must take it, because you don't know how long you're going to be interrogated for, or be a prisoner-of-war for. In other times, do exactly the same route, going to a different room. This one would be warm, and with a paraffin heater, and there would be questions, "Look, we're trying to help you. You've got to tell us what you know. I'm trying to stop these guys from torturing you," which was obviously a load of rubbish. You have to keep on doing the grey man, I don't know. All I know is that this is what my job was. I was there to rescue downed pilots. We got out in a helicopter, took off, and we were lost. You keep on with that story, because that's your job. You have got to maintain what's called "operational security," which is to not give out the information no matter what you do. Physically, you can't control it. They have total control of you physically, so you just have to accept that. What you've got to do is keep mental integrity, because that's what they're after. They're after information, breaking down and signing bits of paper denouncing the war, and all of these things that go on. If you put all of your efforts into your mental integrity, and the rest of it, so what, you've got no control, so you can't do anything about it. You might get through with minimal injuries. You might end up a cripple at the end of it, you just don't know. You've got to accept that you're in the shit, and just accept it, but keep that going.
What would you do if you had the chance to spend 5mins in a room with your main torturer?
You see, it's a strange situation really because, as I've said, I understand the reasons for interrogation. I understand the reasons why I was going through that process. There are some of those interrogators who were trained by the Brits, because we've been back in Iraq for ten years in a war with Iran. And, these guys use to coming say, 'Hey, look. I understand you've got a job to do. We've got a job to do. Let's get on with it.' And there was that sort of smiling about it, but I understood. I didn't agree with it, but I understood. But there is two in particular, two guys, again - I never saw these people, because I was always blindfolded, but without a doubt they were doing it because they liked it. There was that anger. There was all those sorts of things. They liked it. And, I don't know, I don't care the reasons why - whether their families were killed in the bombings. Because we'd get bombed every night for hours and hours - every single night in Baghdad. So, I don't know the reasons why, but I don't care. It's those two. Now if I could stone them to death and get away with it, I wouldn't as I don't want to torture them. I just want to kill them. And that would be fair one for me.
